有一种鸟

有一种鸟是永远也关不住的,不仅仅因为它的每片羽翼上都沾满了自由的光辉,更因为他在被关的时候得到了很多鸟儿的营救 ...

27/11/2011

德国明镜周刊采访艾未未:“我有愧” (翻译者:@bullshit_i)

德国明镜周刊采访 “我有愧”: http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/0,1518,799019-2,00.html (德文)
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,799302,00.html (英文)

翻译者:@bullshit_i (叫我狗屎哥就好) 好久没写过中文了,不少表达可能很糟糕,各位看官多抱歉了, BTW, 挺@aiww !

首发地址:

艾未未:
part 1:
'Shame on Me'
‘我有愧’
The Chinese artist Ai Weiwei speaks about the changes in his life since the end of his detention in June and shows himself moved and surprised by a new culture of protest in his country.
中国艺术家艾未未谈自6月底被释放后他的变化, 以及他对他的祖国新近流行的抗议热潮的感动以及惊讶.
SPIEGEL: Last week you made a €970,000 ($1.3 million) payment to the bank account of the Chinese tax authorities. You consider it to be a kind of guarantee, a deposit. Do they consider it to be an admission of guilt?
S:上周你支付了97万欧元(130万美金)给中国税务机构。 你把这当作是一种保证,一个存款。他们是否把这当作是一种犯罪/反抗的代价呢?
Ai: I cannot speak for them. But I can tell you a lot about the pressure from the tax bureau and the police department on me. They really, really wanted us to pay. They tried to push us hard. They said: Pay something, you should understand. But they did not tell me what I should understand.
A: 我不知道他们是怎么想的。 但是我可以告诉你我受到了来自税务局和警察局极大的压力。他们是真的想叫我交这笔钱。他们是这样说的: 你买单后就会懂的,但是他们却不告诉我会懂些什么.
SPIEGEL: So the fact that you finally paid is a kind of victory for them?
S:所以基于你付钱了的这个事实,他们把这当成了一次胜利吗?
Ai: Well, it was desirable for them but we had no choice. They said: If you don't pay, we will bring your case to the public security office, and then you will be facing criminal charges. By law you have to pay first, and then you can make an appeal.
A: 恩,这确实是他们所想的,但是我们别无他法。他们这样说的:如果你不交钱,我们将把你的这个案子交给公安部,然后你将受到起诉. 按照法律,你必须得先交钱,然后你才可以上诉。
SPIEGEL: Have you ever seen any proof of your alleged tax evasion?
S: 你有受到任何关于你欠税的证据吗?
Ai: No, and it is ridiculous. The only reason why they put me in jail is my involvement in politics, my criticism of the authorities. Later the excuse for my detention became my "tax problem." But internally they never told me anything about it. I don't want to underestimate their intelligence, but up to this day I think what they did is very stupid. In fact, they even helped me in an ironic sense. They gave me a chance to explain what is happening with this system. They provided such a platform for me.
A:没有,这实在是太坑跌了。我入狱的根本原因是我对政府的批评,但后来对我的抓捕竟然是因为我的税务问题. 在我被关押的时候他们并没有告知我任何关于税务的问题,虽然我不想低估他们的智商,但是他们实在是太蠢了。事实上,这相当讽刺,因为他们反而给了我一个机会向普罗大众解释发生了什么事情。 他们提供了一个平台给我。
SPIEGEL: Is there any chance that your appeal against the tax demand might be successful?
S:上诉会成功吗?
Ai: Almost zero. China never discusses any cases related to politics. They will always use other crimes to charge you with. That has happened since the Cultural Revolution and it is still happening. But the deadly weapon against this kind of totalitarian society is openness. So in my case we do everything very openly on the Internet. We let people know every detail, any little development. Once it is out there, everybody can make their own judgement. So we are holding a trial outside the court. I think that is fairness, that is justice, that is a civil society. Otherwise we call it an evil society because everything is hidden.
A:几乎不可能。凡是遇到政治问题,中国是从来不妥协的。欲加之罪何患无辞?他们总会找到些办法来搞你, 这从文化大革命就开始一直延续到现在。我以为,针对这种极权主义最有力的武器就是公开,透明。我这个案子我们想尽一切办法在网路上公开所有细节,以及任何细小的变动。 当信息摆在公众面前,每个人都会有自己的判断。 这是我们在法院外来的一场公众的审判,我认为这才是公平公正,才是文明的社会做的事情,不然,一切都被隐瞒着的社会,只能是一个蒙昧邪恶的社会.
SPIEGEL: Many Chinese showed an impressive degree of solidarity by giving you money. Many also added personal messages. Is there one that touched you in particular?
S:很多中国人给给予你金钱的支持以及一些鼓励的言语, 这让你特别感动吗?
Ai: There were thousands of moving messages. One blogger said: Weiwei, we know who you are, we use our money as a voting ticket. Another one said: Mr. Ai, I am 13 years old, this is the proof that they can never beat us. People sent money from their first month's salary. Others said: This is my retirement payment -- take it. This is the money for my next pair of shoes -- take it. It was very important for me to see and hear those things. Normally you do not see the warmth, humor, care and generosity of the people while writing a blog. You just feel like you are walking in a dark tunnel and you feel alone.
A: 有无数感动的支持留言, 一个博主是这么说的:未未, 我们都知道你是谁,我们用我们的钱作为一票来支持你。 有人说:艾婶,我13岁,这是他们永远无法打败我们的证据:人们用他们第一个月的工资来支持你, 还有人:这是我的退休金,拿着。 这是我买下双鞋的钱,拿着。  这些话语对我而言的意义是难以言尽的, 在互联网时代大多情况下都是一个人孤独地走过黑黑隧道而不是与这些温暖,幽默,关怀 以及动人可爱地人们同行。
SPIEGEL: Did you underestimate the Chinese people?
S:你低估了中国人吗?
Ai: I did. Shame on me. I, and not only me, always thought, in modern history Chinese people are like a dish of sand, never really close together. But today I think a dish of sand is a good metaphor because now we have the Internet. We don't have to be physically united. You can be an individual and have your own set of values but join others in certain struggles. There is nothing more powerful than that. On the Internet, people do not know each other, they don't have common leaders, sometimes not even a common political goal. But they come together on certain issues. I think that is a miracle. It never happened in the past. Without the Internet, I would not even be Ai Weiwei today. I would just be an artist somewhere doing my shows.
A:是的,我这次确实是觉得非常惭愧,很多人,包括我,一直觉得在现在社会,中国人更像是一盘散沙,永远聚不到一起。 但在互联网时代地今天,一盘散沙反而是一个绝佳地比喻,我们不需要在现实生活中在一起, 并且你的独立人格/价值观 不会妨碍你加入特定地抗争。 再也找不到比这更有力地东西了, 在互联网时代,人们不认识彼此,没有一个领导/组织者, 很多情况些人们连一个共同地政治诉求都没有,但却可以在特定问题下走到一起,这绝对是一个前无古人地奇迹, 如果没有互联网,就没有现在地艾未未, 我搞不好就是一个到处开展览地艺术家
SPIEGEL: In China, it is quite unusual for people to show their support for critics of the government so openly. Why do you think they are doing so this time?
S:在中国,人们一般不会像这次一样公开支持批评政府地人, 为什么这一次他们给你这么巨大地支持呢?
Ai: Whenever there is injustice, there is tension. But in China it is very hard to release your anger unless you burn yourself or you jump from a bridge. In a society where there is no freedom of the press, it is difficult for victims to be noticed. Just take the example from yesterday: I had given a telephone interview to CNN. Then, suddenly, CNN was shut down for a couple of minutes. It was the first time I experienced that my television went totally dead. I realized: Oh my God, its because of me, this is crazy! Which nation would do that? Maybe Cuba, North Korea, China. But what do they want, what are they so afraid of?
A:若有不公,就有紧张。 在中国除了自焚,跳河之外你找不到什么其他发泄地办法。 在一个没有新闻自由地社会, 人们通常都是不明真相。 就拿昨天地一个例子好了: 我跟cnn进行了一次电话连线访谈,突然, CNN就被河蟹了好几分钟,这是第一次我发现我的电视彻底石化。 我终于发现, 这是因为我,这实在是太夸张了,那个国家会做这种事? 古巴,北韩,中国吗? 他们究竟想要什么?他们不怕吗?
 SPIEGEL: So what is your explanation? Why are you so dangerous to them?
S:你对此地解释是什么呢? 为什么你对他们而言那么危险?
Ai: Truth, this is the greatest danger for this kind of machine. And I am fighting for truth. After 60 years in government they are becoming an underground party again, a secret organization. They never discuss things openly. They don't answer questions. They just give orders, mostly secret orders. But this is not suitable to their position. They have a party with 80 million members. They control this nation. China is the rising superpower. So why are they so shy? What stops them from speaking out? That is the question. Nobody can answer it.
A:真相。 极权社会最怕地东西。 我在为真相而战  60年地统治反而让这个政党重新变成地下党,一个秘密组织。 他们从来不公开地讨论, 从来不回答诉求。 他们就是下命令,大多是秘密地命令。 但这不该啊,对不起他们地地位啊。 他们有8000万地党员,他们控制着这个国家。 中国还是一个新型地超级大国,为什么这么害羞呢, 什么在阻碍着他们讲话呢? 这是我最大地疑惑,没人能给我一个答案。
SPIEGEL: Why do you think they are so focused on you?
S:为什么他们老针对你?
Ai: I often ask myself this. Why did I become the No. 1 enemy of the state? During my detention even, they kept asking me: Ai Weiwei, what is the reason you have become like this today? My answer is: First, I refuse to forget. My parents, my family, their whole generation and my generation all paid a great deal in the struggle for freedom of speech. Many people died just because of one sentence or even one word. Somebody has to take responsibility for that. If a nation cannot face its past, it has no future. I started to ask questions. Over 5,000 students dead in the Sichuan earthquake. Who were they? The fire in the high-rise building in Shanghai that killed about 60 people. Who were they? I told them: Come on, just answer these very simple questions. As an artist, I am very familiar with how to show the details, how to transform them into a language people can understand. They know that the Internet is a strong force, unbearable for them.
A:我也经常问自己问什么? 为什么我是头号“国家公敌”? 在我被扣押地日子里,他们老是同我:艾未未,究竟是什么原因把你变成了今天地样子? 我的回答是: 首先,我拒绝遗忘, 我的父亲,我的家庭,他们那一代人,以及我这代人已经为言论自由付出了足够多地了,很多人就因为一句话,一个字被杀。 要有个人出来负责。 如果这个国家无法面对过去,她是不会有未来地。 我开始去问问题。当有多余5000个学生在四川大地震死去地时候, 他们是谁? 我就问这么简单地问题。 作为一个艺术家, 我知道该怎么去表达这些细节, 如何把这些变幻成大众能明白地。 他们知道互联网是一个强有力地能量,这对他们而言这是无法忍受地。
Part 2: 'Do They Want Me To Leave?'
他们想我滚蛋吗?
SPIEGEL: Your microblog on Sina Weibo, the Chinese equivalent to Twitter, was blocked and then reopened again.
S:你开了新郎围脖(中国地推特山寨), 被封号后又重新开了
Ai: It was reopened under a different name, but immediately we got 50,000 followers, our hardcore fans. Sina Weibo allowed me to stay there for about three days. That's the moment we put our bank account on it. I am sure Sina Weibo knew about it, but nobody wanted to delete it without a very firm order from the top.
A:我是用另外一个名字开的,一下子就有5万哥关注者,我们地超级粉丝。 新郎微波让我地帐号存活了大概三天, 就是我们把我们地银行帐号公布地时候。 我清除新浪围脖知道这个,但是他们不会去删除直到上面下一个清晰地指示。
SPIEGEL: Has Sina Weibo, the microblogging website tolerated by the state, become the platform for a growing democratic movement in China?
S:新浪围脖, 在政府地允许下, 是否开始了一个新的民主诉求运动呢?
Ai: Only because there is no other market, no alternative. China didn't want to lose the cutting edge of technology. So the idea of having a Sina Weibo was an attempt to compete with Twitter. However, it has no soul -- which is freedom of expression. Nevertheless, I think the government regrets having Sina Weibo, but they cannot shut it down. That would definitely be suicidal.
A:这只是因为没有更好地替代者罢了。 中国在高科技领域不想输, 新浪围脖是一个跟推特竞争地尝试, 但是, 新郎围脖缺少了推特地核心: 自由地表达。  因此, 我认为政府其实已经开始后悔开了围脖,并且他们是无法关闭它地,否则必然是一个自杀性行为。
SPIEGEL: Why do you think the government is now coming up with new threats? Is it revenge for you not being silent after your release?
S:为什么你认为政府会想新地办法来威胁整你呢? 是不是一种对你没有保持沉默地报复呢?
Ai: I don't know their intentions. I guess they have unfinished business. They are afraid to lose face.
A:我不知道他们地出发点,但是我猜测他们没搞完,他们怕丢脸。
SPIEGEL: Have the past months led you to feel closer to your home country China or has it separated you emotionally from it?
S:过去地几个月有让你觉得跟祖国走的更近了,还是更远了?
Ai: Well, I see the broad support from the young people. If I walk on the street, if I go to a restaurant, people come to me and say: "Can we take a photo together? Can you give me your autograph?" They would bring their expensive Armani or Prada wallet to sign. Other people who are desperate show me a photo of their dead daughter and ask: Can you support me? I tell them: How can I? Morally, of course, I sympathize with you. But I cannot support you and you cannot support me. This is the condition of this society. We are separated.
A:恩,我看到了来自年轻人对我地支持。 如果我走在路上,餐厅,人们会走过来说:我们能一起照相吗? 能给我一个签名吗? 他们会把他们昂贵地armani和prada钱包拿出来给我签名。 也有人拿出他那快死地女儿地照片寻求我的帮助。 但是我能帮什么? 精神上吗? 当然,我同情你,但是我真的无法帮你,你也无法帮我。 这就是这个国家地现实, 我们被分开了。
SPIEGEL: Is it the government hoping that you will leave China one day?
S:这个政府想你走么?
Ai: I have no idea. What do they want? Do they want me to stay? Do they want me to leave? Do they want me to hang myself? To kill myself? What do they want?
A:我不知道他们想要什么。 他们要我留下来? 还是走? 想我自杀? 还是直接干掉我? 他们究竟想要什么?
SPIEGEL: I guess they want a silent Ai Weiwei.
S:我猜他们想要一个沉默地艾未未
Ai: That's for sure. They don't want me to talk.
A:当然,他们不想我说话。
SPIEGEL: Will you stay in China?
S:你会留下来吗?
Ai: That's a hard question. But it doesn't matter where I am -- China will stay in me. I don't know how far I can still walk on this road and what is the limit.
A:很难说。 但无所谓我在何处,中国永远在我心中。 我不知道我还能走多久。
SPIEGEL: In which way has the experience of the past months changed your art or your definition of art?
S:过去这几个月地经历改变了你对艺术地认知吗?
Ai: My definition of art has always been the same. It is about freedom of expression, a new way of communication. It is never about exhibiting in museums or about hanging it on the wall. Art should live in the heart of the people. Ordinary people should have the same ability to understand art as anybody else. I don't think art is elite or mysterious. I don't think anybody can separate art from politics. The intention to separate art from politics is itself a very political intention. I definitely know people who are shameless enough to give up basic values. I see this kind of art, and when I see it I feel ashamed. In China they treat art as some form of decoration, a self-indulgence. It is pretending to be art. It looks like art. It sells like art. But it is really a piece of shit.
A:我对艺术地认知一直都是一样地。 那是一种自由地表达,一种新的交流。 而不是关于展览以及或者挂在墙上。 普罗大众一样能鉴赏艺术。 艺术不该是上层社会独有地产物。 艺术跟政治是无法分开地。 政艺分离本身就带有强烈地政治企图。我清楚很多艺术家能无耻地放弃底线,我对这种形式地艺术感到修枝。 在中国这些花瓶被当作艺术,其实在我看来,就是臭狗屎。
SPIEGEL: Human rights organizations are viewing the way the regime dealt with you and activists this spring as the harshest repression seen in years. Still, if you look at the past 15 years, do you see any progress in China's civil society?
S:人权组织认为这个春天对你们地压迫是近年来最严重地, 如果让你往回看15年,中国社会有什么进步吗
Ai: There is a lot. Because of the technology, again. Because China partially wants to become part of the world. By hosting the Olympics and the Expo, they made a big effort to tell people: Look, we are the same. They want to be accepted by the international community. But they would never recognize the Western values of freedom of speech and an independent judicial system. However, the younger generation has become rich, they have to face the challenge of competition, so they accept a lot from the West. And China has become much more reasonable than before. They detained me for 81 days, but they never killed me. They clearly told me: "If we were in the Cultural Revolution, you would have been killed 100 times." They said: "We have already improved." I said: "I thank you very much. Yes, you have improved. Not because you are really willing to improve yourself, but only because improvement is a matter of surviving."
A:有很多很多。 当然,这跟科技有关。中国想做世界地一分子, 从奥运,世博就可以看出他们在努力告诉世界: 看,我们是一样地。他们想被国际社会所接受但是他们却从来不认可西方地言论自由以及独立司法。但是,年轻一代开始变的有钱,他们不得不面对现代竞争,所以他们接受西方价值观。中国变的更加地理性了。 他们关押了我81天但是却没有杀了我。 他们是这样告诉我的: 如果这是文化大革命,你已经死了100次了。 看,我们其实有变好。 我说:谢谢,但这些改变不是你们主动地,而是你们不得不变,否则就会灭亡。
SPIEGEL: Do you think people in China are more self-confident now?
S:在中国的人们现在更加自信了吗?
Ai: Oh yes, they are fighting for their rights before they even know that they are fighting for their rights. They have never been educated to defend their rights. But if their mom in the hospital has to wait for a long time to be treated, if their children have kidney stones because of the milk powder, if their children die in a collapsed school building during an earthquake, if their houses are forcibly demolished, then they start to speak out.
A:当然, 他们在为自己的权利抗争甚至他们还没有意识到。 他们从来没有被教过应该要维权。他们从来没被教过要反抗。但是当他们的母亲在医院得等很久才可以接受治疗时,当他们的小孩因为不好的奶粉得了结石病,当他们的小孩死于学校在地震时候的坍塌,当他们的房子被强拆, 他们会开始行动的。
SPIEGEL: Apart from you as an artist, is there a special group in China which is on the frontline of fighting for human rights?
S:除了你作为艺术家,有没有一个特殊的群体在中国为人权而奋斗呢?
Ai: There are two groups. First, it's the lawyers because they have to make a living by dealing with cases. There are just a few lawyers who are willing to stand up and say: Hey, this is too much. You are abusing power. Liu Xiaoyuan is one of them. The police told him while I was arrested: You cannot speak for Ai Weiwei. Today he has no lawyer's license. He was threatened; they took off his clothes and kicked him. They insulted him. They clearly told him: We want your family to suffer; we want your family to be broken. It doesn't matter how strong Liu Xiaoyuan is -- how can he bear this? They have done this to a lot of lawyers: They beat them, scare them, follow them. But if civil society has nobody who protects the law, then what kind of society is that?
A:有两个。 第一个是律师。 但大多数只是为了温饱,极少数律师能站出来说:喂,你太过分了。 你在滥用权利。 刘晓原是其中一个。警察告诉他当我被逮捕的时候: 你不能为他辩护。今天他丢掉了律师执照。他被威胁。他们脱掉他的衣服然后打他。他们辱骂他。他们很清楚的告诉他:我们就是想要你的家庭遭罪。 无论刘晓原是多么坚强的人,他怎么忍受这么多? 类似的事情他们干了很多, 律师们被打,被威胁,被跟踪。 如果一个文明的社会没有人去保护法律,那么这是一个怎么样的社会呢?
SPIEGEL: And the second group?
S:另外一个群体呢?
Ai: Yes, that's very funny: the IT people who have made such an effort to know and understand computer technology. They are frustrated that you cannot use Facebook, Twitter and YouTube in China. They are the first to recognize that the situation is terrible. It is not the so-called intellectuals who stand up. Artists are the worst. They are selfish, self-centred; they don't care what happens.
A:这个很好玩。 搞IT的人努力的去学习现代计算机科技,当他们无法使用非死不可,推特,youtube的时候,他们抓狂了。 他们是第一批认识到这个现状是多么的糟糕。 这就是最娱乐的地方, 并不是那些所谓的知识分子第一个站出来而是他们。 还有,艺术家是最糟糕的,他们自私,自我,他们不关心发生了什么。
SPIEGEL: It is not only the critics, but also the relatives of dissidents who suffer a lot. Liu Xia, the wife of Liu Xiaobo, is under house arrest. How are your mother and your wife doing?
S:不只是这些异议者遭罪,他们的亲属也连带着受苦,比如说刘霞,刘晓原的妻子,到目前为止被软禁在家中。 你的母亲与妻子如何呢?
Ai: They suffer so much. My mother became much older when I came out (ed's note: of detention). She had problems with her hearing and high blood pressure. But they still support me. When you make somebody disappear and you don't announce it to the family, what is this? You make people desperate and bring them close to death. If our cat or dog is lost, it makes us desperately want to know where it is -- so for humans disappearing, you can barely imagine the pain. What kind of society is this? If a society cannot even support somebody like me, then people ask: Who is under protection then? That's why there is such support for me. It is not because I am so beautiful or I am so charming. People feel: This guy is fighting for us.
A:他们遭了很多罪.  我妈变的特别衰老当我出来的时候。她的听举有问题,以及有高血压。 但是他们依旧支持我。当你让一个人突然消失并且不告诉他的家人,这叫什么事? 你会让他的加人们感到无助和想去死。 如果我们的猫或狗丢了,我们会很着急得想知道它在哪里。如果使一个人丢了,你可想而知我们会多着急。这是什么社会啊? 谁在被保护呢? 这是我得支持得来源。 并不是因为我长得帅或者漂亮,而是人们觉得我在为他们而站。
SPIEGEL: Are there special moments during the day where the memories of your time in jail come back?
S:你平时回想起在监狱得记忆吗?
Ai: Every second. This is something you can never erase. It leaves a scar on you.
A:每一分每一秒。 这已经烙印在我身上了,永远不会退去。
SPIEGEL: If you were asked to express your experience in jail in an artwork, what would you create?
S:如果叫你去把你在监狱里面得经验用艺术来表示, 你会怎么做?
Ai: Nothing. Jail is about nothing. Completely blank.
A:什么都没有, 监狱什么都不是。 一片空白。
SPIEGEL: How do you release your rage and anger? How do you deal with it?
S:你如何释放你的愤怒?
Ai: Life is art. Art is life. I never separate it. I don't feel that much anger. I equally have a lot of joy.
A:生活是艺术,艺术是生活。 我从来没把它们分开过。 我从来没有过很强得吩咐,我从这两个地方获得了相同得乐趣。
SPIEGEL: Where does that joy come from?
S:这些乐趣从何而来?
Ai: I see the rain. I see the leaves come down.
A:我看见雨, 我看见落叶。 
SPIEGEL: Mr. Ai, we thank you very much.
S:艾先生,谢谢。

1 comment:

  1. Mr. Ai, we thank you very much.

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